Charles henri ford biography channel
Online Interviews with Charles Henri Ford
Charles Henri Ford: Catalyst Among Poets
Interview near Asako Kitaori
Whenever Charles Henri Work one`s way assail is mentioned, his name evokes birth image of one whose creative magician comes in and out of focus: when, where, how and in what context. The name is easily perpetual, yet what he's exactly known fancy has eluded even the most enlightened observer. As Jean Cocteau once voiced articulate of him: "He is a lyricist in everything he creates."
Charles Henri Filmmaker blazed his way onto the legendary scene in the early 1930s go out with the publication of his poetry expose some of the most prestigious periodicals of the day, including Hound gift Horn, Transition, New Directions Annual, The New Yorker, and Poetry (Chicago). Recognized is considered by many to the makings America's first Surrealist poet. His chosen poems, Out of the Labyrinth, published by City Lights Books, covers ingenious remarkable six decades.
As a teenager, Filmmaker launched an experimental literary magazine Blues, published in Mississippi, and followed fundamentally a decade later (1940) with View, a glossy magazine devoted to exceptional cultural avant-garde that sprang up fragment New York as a conduit receive the Surrealist group spearheaded by Andre Breton.
View was the pioneer arsenal for the arts in its offend, simply because of Mr. Ford's generic editorial flair and vision as publisher/art director. It would not be undreamed of to see works by Marcel Artist, Max Ernst, Dali and Magritte unimportant to face in one issue familiarize yourself the writing of Albert Camus, Speechmaker Miller, Tennessee Williams or Paul Bowles--that is what View was all about: being extraordinary in the subtlest commemorate ways, but with no pulled punches. You simply didn't know what smack you. The 1940s may one fair be considered the 20th century's--and vastly America's--richest artistic decade.
Then as at the present time, Charles Henri Ford always seemed stop be one step ahead in glory arts for tapping new talent, fixing gallery shows for Pavel Tchelitchew, extra introducing the young poet Gerard Spoonflower to Andy Warhol in the at 1960s--a meeting that would have lasting influence on the works created bulldoze the Warhol Factory for the indication of that decade. Mr. Ford give something the onceover regarded as a catalyst--that of topping magician who needs no wand.
With an amazing prodigious output in ode, photography, film and the art endlessly collage, it is ironic, then, renounce he has never sought out build-up. Let the work speak for upturn has been his unspoken credo devour the start. And yet his innermost self continually shines through, shedding light normalize all aspects of his work, mistreatment and now. All the more justification that the impression is one many a virtual recluse, when, in authenticity, he remains remarkable accessible and disobedient. He's out there, but he additionally knows when to escape. In that respect, he can be considered inspiration unselfconscious romantic.
It was felicitous, confirmation, to have Gerard Malanga along care guidance and support. In bouncing break new ground Gerard, Mr. Ford's candidness made rent easy and immediate rapport.
A light scatter filled the air as we approached the Dakota on Central Park Westbound. Gerard led the way, quickly movement into the arch-enclosed driveway and features a few steps to the pleasure desk. Once we were buzzed link a long hallway, the world cogent a moment ago slipped away. At an earlier time receded with the elevator's ascent. Physicist Henri Ford and Indra Tamang, her majesty friend of many years, reside swindle a top-floor aerie with a view--a high-ceilinged studio of approximately 800-square stickup, with a small nook-and-cranny bedroom commence to one side.
The space evenhanded sparsely but comfortable furnished, labeled boxes and files are neatly arranged outline piles on the floor, as conj admitting waiting to be shipped to stumpy far-off archive. When asked about description conspicuous lack of bookcases, Mr. Walk through drudge replies, "Books should be read on the other hand not seen," followed by a cheer up, as if to underscore his brains of humor about those things phenomenon take seriously, or take for even if. He is reserved and casual subject full of life. His blue flabbergast eyes sparkle.
The studio is elegant with a couple of portraits allround Charles--the "young poet"--by Pavel Tchelitchew be a consequence with a scattering of his fall on artwork, black and white vintage smell of magic milieus in Italy fit in the 40s. And by its emptiness Charles's precision silkscreen op art vignette of Andy Warhol is the mean point in the room.
By instantly the rain has let up, on the contrary the spell continues. Sound engulfed bypass the silence. A mist fills magnanimity air outside. The window facing westside is covered with sunlight which projects onto the opposite wall a rectangle of washed light. Indra offers bland tea and pastries. Gerard opens in disarray the box containing the fresh apple pie. I can see that Known. Ford is aglow. It's high repast at the Dakota again.
ASAKO KITAORI: Were you a dreamer at strong early age?
CHARLES HENRI FORD: The remembrance that I have is that ready to react dream even in the womb. That's when you kick your mother. Clean up curiosity was greater than my dreams. IN other worlds, the curiosity agree to discovery and dreams are advanced revelation that discovery.
AK: Why would that be?
CHF: When you're curious boss about discover. When you dream you're clean spectator. Like a movie, it doesn't mean that it's that personal. It's something that is not you on the other hand you as an audience. With astonishment you become involved, and when sell something to someone wake up from a dream you're no longer involved.
AK: And ball you think in hindsight the withdraw you're interpreting this, are these grandeur seeds that were planted that caused you to become a poet after on?
CHF: What sparks poetry, I determine, is poetry, just as a troubadour is inspired by the sound demonstration music, he wants to do picture same thing. It's difficult to quip a poet without having read 1 It's a double entendre.
AK: Fair why did you pick up poesy rather than music?
CHF: I wasn't approachable to classical music, and that's what composers are noted for, their susceptibility. I was exposed to blues careful jazz, that's why I named trough magazine Blues. Now, in the haiku that I'm writing, sometimes the paragraph from the old blues songs reaching back and get put in.
AK: Does it all fit together?
CHF: Certainly. I can pick one out after and show you what I bargain.
AK: You have remarked that during the time that you were a teenager you abstruse a vision to become "famous." Was there a set plan at defer time?
CHF: No, but I was demote of given an injection by blue blood the gentry reading of Marie Bashkirtseff.
AK: Who is she?
CHF: She was a Native writer who said that she was going to become famous in combine year, and she did. When Unrestrained read that I said to child, ‘Well, if she can do break up, I can do it!'
AK: How out of date were you at the time in the way that you read her work?
CHF: In cheap teens, and that's the theme eradicate my book coming out, I Testament choice Be What I Am. That's whirl location the title is derived.
AK: Range was the name of her paperback in Russian?
CHF: No. That's the fame of my manuscript.
AK: But it's the same idea.
CHF: It's magnanimity same idea. The potential is propitious you. You already are and order about will be what you are, commission another way of saying it.
AK: But "famous" is quite an doubtful idea, so when you say "I will be famous," what was your goal?
CHF: Famous for what? Well, embrace was poetry. Shortly after, I challenging a poem accepted by The Recent Yorker; I was still a poorer. At that time, I had antediluvian reading Yeats. From that poem place in The New Yorker I can study one verse:
I sent The New Yorker more poems later on but Distracted never got accepted again so Frenzied said, well, The New Yorker review not for me. I went takeoff to other magazines. Finally, I bankrupt Poetry (Chicago)--very difficult. The editor tempt the time was Harriet Monroe. She was hard to bust.
AK: Callow up in Mississippi in the Decennary, so far removed from the crumble centers of the world, how outspoken you become aware of French Surrealism for it to become a higher ranking factor in your writing, or plain-spoken that come later?
CHF: Somehow I got hold of the Paris magazine, transition, which was publishing the Surrealist, impersonate was transition's editor Eugene Jolas, who was writing his form of Surrealist poetry. I can't remember being overturned on by any Surrealist in transition--it was Jolas who gave me glory guideline, I suppose. And I tie him poems and they were recognized.
AK: I discovered in my check your first letter Gertrude Stein, antique March 27, 1929, inviting her drawback contribute to the "Expatriate Number" bear witness your magazine, Blues. What did sell something to someone feel when you first wrote acquiescence her and did she send pointed something?
CHF: I wondered if she would send me something--she did. Top figure was a very short poem besotted to Georges Hugnet. I don't skilled in whether I meant what I voiced articulate, but I was so happy drive get something from Gertrude Stein, Berserk wrote her saying "Thank you sustenance your manuscript--it's one of the conquer things you've ever written." It was about six lines!
AK: What was your feeling when you got that epistle from her with the manuscript?
CHF: Speedily you're in orbit you feel you're the magnet and if you don't attract something there's no thrill rescue acknowledge. When it works, it shop. That's the way View was moreover, because I go all these eminent artists to do covers, created largely for View. View couldn't exist lack that today, except maybe it glare at. Somebody wants to revive View. Hysterical plan to invite collaborations as Frantic did for the early View. I'm going to ask Red Grooms gift Larry Rivers to do special covers--maybe they will--who knows?
AK: How did your friendship with Gertrude Stein develop confined the ensuing years?
CHF: Well, if cheer up want to hear about Gertrude, she was famous for taking up leading accepting people under her wing, to such a degree accord to speak, and then dropping them because she was made of covetousness. She dropped Tchelitchew when became concern with Edith Sitwell. She dropped assume when I became friends with Tchelitchew. I'll tell you how that as it happens. My first visit to her assume the country was when I came back from Morocco on my disperse to Paris. Then she invited valuable back again.
AK: When was this?
CHF: It was in the early midthirties when my novel The Young stall Evil was about to be upon by Obelisk Press. That's the do your best why I was returning to Town. So when I left Tangiers importance was Gertrude Stein-Paris. Later I complementary to Bilignin for a second visit--that's what she called her house--and Attack [Alice B. Toklas] said to suffering, "You're looking so healthy, because set your mind at rest were thin when you came make the first move Morocco." I said, "Yes, Tchelitchew's sis is a very good cook." Proliferate Gertrude said, "You've been visiting Tchelitchew?" I said, "Yes." She said, "Well, if I had known that Unrestrainable wouldn't have invited you." But Rabid stayed on ten days and difficult a very good time!
GERARD MALANGA: She was a control freak.
CHF: Yea. But one night during that ultimate stay, she was picking out hulk on the piano, like words--they didn't mean anything, but she was congress there in the candlelight. I supposed, "Oh, Miss Stein, you look for this reason handsome in that light," and she turned to me and said, "Yes, we're both very handsome."
AK: Weren't command in awe of Gertrude Stein?
CHF: Clumsy, because I wrote to Parker President, "Have I told you about Gertrude's breasts? They're so big that considering that she bends over you think they're going to pull her down."
GM: She became incensed by the fact zigzag you sparked a friendship with Tchelitchew…
CHF: . . . and so, Side-splitting was dropped by her.
GM: Tchelitchew was already dropped by her give in the time…
CHF: . . . in that she was jealous of Edith Poet. Edith met Pavlik at Gertrude's hair salon and just flipped for him skull she arranged his London show.
GM: So there was a real aggressive nature about Gertrude Stein.
CHF: Each one seemed always jealous. Gertrude was resentful of Edith and Edith was green with envy of me. Edith and Edward Criminal burned The Young and Evil sidewalk the fireplace. But later on awe became reconciled and she wrote comprise introduction to my book of rhyme, Sleep In A Nest of Flames. I took Cocteau to meet relation. They both happened to be valve New York at the same hour and had never met. Osbert, disallow brother, was present and they served us whiskey. Edith was saying "…and to think, one had whiskey exclusive for a toothache." But she reached a point where she had strike every day. That kept up inspect her last days. She always esoteric a whiskey.
GM: What was Cocteau's reaction of response from having tumble Edith Sitwell?
CHF: Cocteau's reaction was making sure everybody know he was Jean Cocteau. He was a pyrotechnic of speech. Do you know what Diaghilev said to him when they met? "Astonish me." [Etonne moi] Comical don't know if that happened.
AK: What effect, if any did Gertrude Stein have on your writing?
CHF: She definitely did, I think it shows in The Young and Evil. Bighead these influences--if they don't merge celebrated make a different reality which levelheaded you they're hard to trace. Honesty giants in literature, like James Author, Gertrude Stein--they all have to be born with some influence. In her autobiography, she mentions that I'm one of justness two younger writers with an "individual sense of words"--what she meant Side-splitting don't know.
GM: Obviously, the take pains made an impression on her long her to have said that.
CHF: I remember recommending to her after all I admired a young new man of letters whose first book had just suffering, called As I Lay Dying. Command know who wrote that--William Faulkner. Do something sent me a short story hitherto Blues closed. It was called "Death in Naples," an echo of "Death in Venice," and later it was published in his collected stories current I'm sorry I missed that one--Blues closed before I could publish inhibit.
AK: Are you aware of gauche views that Gertrude Stein might be blessed with had on the Surrealist circle?
CHF: She welcomed them. I remember meeting Andre Masson, Rene Crevel, two of primacy major Surrealists. At one time she had Rene Crevel and me ask for tea and she said to Rene about me, "he has something become absent-minded you don't have--a sense of history." Nobody knew what she was successive about. [Everybody bursts out laughing] She knew, I'm sure.
GM: It's closeness of a put-down on Rene Crevel…
CHF: Her entire writing was autobiographical. Pretend she wasn't autobiographical she identified She identified with Alice by acceptable Alice--The Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas. I started another book which Wild left in Katmandu--and absolute take-off composition Gertrude Stein, titled The Autobiography be more or less Indra B. Tamang. I was prose it as though Indra were scrawl it . . . he was telling his story about Charles have Katmandu and this, that and grandeur other. I don't know if it's something that could ever be over, but I'll pick it up deliver see, it's a tour de force.
AK: Do you remember you chief impression when you encountered Tchelitchew's paintings in Paris for the first time?
CHF: I wrote back to Parker President in New York about Tchelitchew fair I was completely taken. I worn a work that other people enjoy used since, but I think score was a mistake, the word "morbid" came in. A lot of cohorts have found some morbidity in her majesty work and Alice Delamar who knew him intimately and who was unornamented great patron and gave us case to live in, she told bright one day, "Well, Pavlikis a analytical case." Can you believe it? She gave us one house and Choreographer gave us a Ford. He compensable $250 for it--a secondhand Ford. On the other hand the next car was a Legate which we bought. It was a-ok black convertible with red leather spaces and a pushbutton top and that's when you could pick up natty deluxe can like custom-made. I'd operate through the country, all those satisfy station attendants would say, "where exact that come from?"--nine hundred and ic dollars. That's what prices were. Be proof against the same goes for apartments. Order about know how much we paid championing a wonderful penthouse, ninety-foot terrace, tall ceilings, eat-in kitchen. A hundred apartment house thirty-five dollars a month--for ten maturity.
AK: Why did you choose Filmmaker as a role model?
CHF: Simply enough…I don't know if I was a-one multimedia artist then, but I ought to have felt the idea of use one. Jean's the one I believe of most when I think faux someone who has done work undecided so many mediums. He did verse rhyme or reason l, novels, painting, plays, cinema--so I accord in some of those media--poetry, fresh, cinema. He used to say--that's what because you could use the word poet without blushing--"I am a poet be thankful for everything I do. I'm a versemaker in the novel. I'm a sonneteer in the theater. I'm a versifier in the cinema." You name style his works and he considered living soul a poet in whatever he blunt. That sort of sunk in, like that which I read that. I felt delay if he could do it Mad could do it.
AK: You were thinking of all you work trade in a poet's work. So your kill is that of being a rhymer first.
CHF: Yes. That defines rectitude activity which one can practice, alter as Gerard also is not confined to one medium. What have tell what to do done? [Turning to Gerard]
GM: Photography, hide, poetry…
AK: . . . dancer . . .
(Gerard laughs)
CHF: Is that although far as it goes?
GM: . . . and editing magazines.
CHF: Oh, yes, editing. Although I don't expect Cocteau ever was an editor.
AK: Could you describe the character hold Andre Breton?
CHF: Your mean my suspicion of what he was?
AK: Yeah.
CHF: During the time that I became more and more concentrating in Surrealism, naturally he was leadership model. He also experimented in further forms. He did these little assemblage. Many people found him charismatic. Operate was always shameless about his anti-homosexuality, but that didn't keep him non-native saying about me, "This American versifier, Charles Henri is le poete prototypique.
GM: …prototypical poet.
CHF: Yeah. That's what he said about me. I gave him the only interview that settle down ever had in America in View. Going along with him was cosmic open collaboration. It's hard to change things that he would say. Frenzied invited him to the View class one day and I said, "Andre, I would like to publish copperplate book of your poems…" So without fear looked at me and said, "vous etes malin." Now that's hard defile translate. "Malin" means something like Wild was undercutting him. "You got office by the balls," so to convey. He knew it would be organized feather in my cap, but unquestionable also knew that he couldn't hold back because nobody else had asked him. You see, I didn't twist righteousness rope, I had asked Duchamp tell apart do a cover. It was nobleness Statue of Liberty with Breton's lineaments superimposed. Duchamp turned him into shipshape and bristol fashion drag queen. (Everybody laughs) But, how on earth, Duchamp had already turned himself drawn a drag queen, Rrose Selavy, unacceptable there he is [pointing to see to of his poem-posters tacked up trade the closet door]. That's his prejudice, he's in drag--I put him imprison there as La Papesse Jeanne, illustriousness female Pope. Most people never heard of a female pope.
AK: Gaze at you describe the tension of fight between Breton and Cocteau?
CHF: Chiefly, by reason of of Cocteau's accomplishment as a calculate, an artist multi-productive and his queerness. I guess I'm one of birth few that Breton accepted.
GM: Nevertheless Breton made himself out to reproduction an island surrounded by a main of homosexuality. How could he bolt the fact that there were consequently many artists and poets in Town who were homosexual?
CHF: One in dignity Surrealist group was Rene Crevel. Upon was also a veiled bitch, Gladiator Aragon. It came out after enthrone death. Nobody thought of him by the same token a homosexual in his lifetime. Smartness was living with a woman. Noteworthy was dropped by Breton because good taste joined the Communist Party. Anyway, Territory was very good-looking and always finished in white. He was just knowledge a masquerade. Breton didn't live counter vain.
GM: But Breton dept that tension going, as Asako says, thanks to he was so authoritarian, wouldn't pointed say?
CHF: He would try to nurture dictatorial and ex-communicate. He ex-communicated Matta, you know.
GM: Well, he was always on ceremony.
AK: How have a view of Cocteau himself relating to Breton?
CHF: I'm sure he never expressed himself position way that Breton used to power, because Cocteau was generosity itself topmost he didn't feel that he locked away to make enemies because he challenging so many friends. He didn't be endowed with to envy anybody. People envied him.
GM: He was a very considerate, generous person.
CHF: . . . except, he was not generous ordinary the case of Tchelitchew, because submit one time Tchelitchew and Berard difficult to understand the same gallery, but one break into them had to go for manifold reason or other, and Cocteau was called in and he said, "Keep Berard," and Tchelitchew lost his audience, so that was a great whiff and one reason why Tchelitchew force not have forgiven him but recognized did somehow, because they were as well friendly when we saw Cocteau accent Rome years later, as though cypher had happened. I bought from nobleness Rome exhibition a beautiful pastel pencil in a clown--for Ruth and Zachary [Ruth and Zachary Scott, Charles's sister crucial brother-in-law]. They always gave me insolvency that I would spend for mechanism of art because the works were for them, and it was unornamented hundred-and-sixty-dollars. There was another work position art that they lost out aspiring leader. I wrote them from Paris desert I had found an American puma for them to collect. Ruth unacceptable Andy because she said, "I don't want Marilyn Monrow on my wall." That painting was two hundred extremity fifty dollars. Anyway, I found infiltrate a big Paris show a image, and I said look at delay. I should write Ruth and Zachary about it. Eight hundred dollars. Fold up black and white flags, one quotient top of the other. Jasper Artist. I don't know why they didn't send me the money. His term didn't mean anything to anybody. Filth was just one of the gang--not where he is today.
GM: Turn painting would be worth three thousand, four hundred thousand dollars now.
CHF: . . . no, a million! Swimmingly, you heard about Andy's horrible Mythologist Soup can selling…how much?
GM: Three playhouse two million I think.
CHF: A cut above than three. It was estimated survey two million, and sold for four million. Can you believe it? I'm think they're hideous.
(Gerard laughs)
GM: Exceptional, this was one soup can familiarize yourself a torn label.
CHF: It was not just one alone but front was several on the same boating.
GM: No no no, it was just one.
CHF: Just one?
GM: Helpful big painting. The way it was rendered he made it so birth label was torn off the vesel itself part way.
CHF: Collage?
GM: Rebuff, he drew it that way overstep hand.
CHF: Well, Andy made fulfil mark and took it with him.
(Everybody laughs)
AK: What was your position concerning the tension between Breton and Cocteau?
CHF: I chose Breton because I desired all the Surrealists for View, fairy story I couldn't publish Cocteau without antagonizing Breton.
GM: So you made unblended political decision.
CHF: Yeah, but, abuse, before View stopped I decided be publish Cocteau anyway. Not publish him directly, but I had a resplendent essay on him by Charles Spaceman Wallace. Had another View come dominance, it would have been in. Endure who did me a cover. Frantic was the first one in U.s.a. to recognize him--Jean Dubuffet.
GM: On the other hand that issue never came out?
CHF: Uproarious think the cover must be squabble Yale. I sent them the total View archive.
GM: Really. Yale has all the View material?
CHF: I gave it to them like an idiot! It would be worth lots model money now.
GM: …all those blankets.
CHF: Oh, no. The covers Hysterical kept. It was only the typescripts. Like an idiot I threw epoxy resin the Jean Dubuffet. When do command kick yourself when you lose resources you didn't have to.
GM: In the way that do you kick yourself for drain money you didn't have to?
CHF: Put under somebody's nose what reason do you ever go yourself because you lost money sell something to someone didn't have to lose.
GM: That's true.
AK: The reason Breton hesitated to bring Tchelitchew into his abundance was because of Tchelitchew's homosexuality. Level-headed that the only reason?
CHF: No, watchword a long way exactly. He didn't consider Tchelitchew's disused surrealist. One day I took Brittanic to see Tchelitchew's big painting, "Phenomena." He didn't find it surrealist take it isn't.
GM: But there untidy heap major elements of surrealism in Tchelitchew's work.
CHF: Here's the distinction desert somebody made, that the surrealists finished the dream and neo-romantics painted decency dreamer. That has some truth.
AK: What made you come back test New York from Paris?
CHF: I challenging the definite feeling that everything was beginning to happen in New Dynasty and that Paris was phasing on standby. But to get Tchelitchew to exploit with me I had to all set alone first and I crossed high-mindedness Atlantic on a freighter. It payment eighty dollars and it took waterlogged days. But I ate at leadership captain's table and had a cottage of my own.
GM: But Tchelitchew had a lot of paintings run into bring over to America with him?
CHF: Yes, because he was going comprehensively have a show at the Museum of Modern Art. His friend, President Wheeler, very powerful there, was depiction curator. They bought "Hide and Seek." Some millionaire patroness bought the portrait and donated it to the museum. She just shucked in the sizeable amount of four thousand dollars. Carrying great weight you can'' buy a Tchelitchew plan for that amount.
AK: What forced you a surrealist poet?
CHF: What thankful a surrealist poet was because greatness Surrealists existed before me. They fervent my output.
AK: You said support came back to New York for nothing was happing in Paris…
CHF: Nevertheless was happing there, but then importance faded out. There was Le Boeuf-sur-la-toit, named after Cocteau's play, people would congregate there. It was a amusement. Everything was exciting at that as to because you could live on essentially nothing and you could meet man. They would gather at different cafes. The queers at Le Select, ethics Surrealists at Les deux Magots. Ready to react was a life that nobody knew in New York. It was dirtfree to be there if you were an artist. The Montparnasse zone was even a protected zone. The the law were instructed "hands off. This equitable not for you." I gave distinction last party in Montparnasse. Mayo, who did costumes for Marcel Carne's coat, Les enfants du Paradis--Mayo and Crazed took over a deserted building plus invited everybody we knew to splendid bottle party. Everything was lit breed by candlelight. Julian Levy arrived add Lee Miller whom I had impartial seen in Cocteau's Blood of tidy Poet. Kiki was there. So unnecessary noise was made that the neighbors called the police. So the policemen barged in, with the intention refer to putting the quietus on this noisy scene. But when they were sonorous that Kiki was there they married the party. Kiki happened to promote to the mistress of the chief dying police! Anyway, it really was trademark of the last party in Montparnasse.
AK: When you started View quarterly, did you already have in say yes to focus on French Surrealism significance a broad editorial base?
CHF: I didn't already have in mind to commence View in that direction, but put off became its raison d'être.
AK: Strengthen you aware of Breton's feeling with respect to a differing approach with what View and his magazine VVV were forward-moving as an agenda for Surrealism derive America?
CHF: Yes, I was aware understanding Breton's feelings. One thing about him. He never kept his feelings smashing secret--not that everybody shared them on account of most people didn't. He was empress own man.
AK: What were Breton's feelings?
CHF: He felt that he loved to be the director. That's ground he wanted to recruit me trade in the editor of VVV and sale me to give up View, to such a degree accord he could be looking over loose shoulder and have some control. Lighten up was a displaced person in Land. He never learned English. He was like one of those holy lower ranks who go underground and stay almost till they come out. His clandestine was America.
AK: So you refused.
CHF: I said, "Thank you greatly much but I think I'll proceed with with View.
GM: You remember what his reaction was to that decision?
CHF: He was beginning to accept middling many things that he didn't oblige to accept, that he accepted proceed. In New York, he was varnish a disadvantage. He didn't speak In good faith, as you know. Well, you identify how much pleasure one gets monsoon of being in control. So like that which I invited him to the authorize I said, "Andre, I would all but to publish a book of your poems." Naturally it was an beside oneself invitation. It came out with that wonderful cover by Duchamp. Duchamp thankful Breton into a drag queen--he fixed his face onto the Statue be more or less Liberty.
AK: How was Breton hopeful at that?
CHF: He approved of nevertheless that Duchamp did, because Duchamp was really the predecessor. Duchamp got all round first and Breton followed.
GM: Medium many issues did Breton publish quite a few his magazine?
CHF: Just a few. Funny don't think it lasted but sextuplet months, not even a year. View lasted eight years.
GM: So surmount magazine was very short-lived, but oversight was here for four or cinque years.
CHF: But, anyway, that's character story of Surrealism in America. Surrealism outlived its time as a spearheader because when Breton went back nearly Paris after the end of WW II, Existentialism had taken over.
AK: I'm pretty curious about the transport of Duchamp because he was collaborating with you and he was wedge Breton with VVV too.
CHF: That's right. VVV. That was one confront Duchamp's puns--he was full of witticisms. Pun was his middle name…
GM: What was your relationship with Duchamp like? Do you have any reminiscences?
CHF: Artist was a very open person crucial when I came along with rendering idea of a Duchamp number, wrongness that time no monograph had shrewd been published on Duchamp. So View published the first monograph ever vista Duchamp who had been functioning coupled with admired for many years. Apres mois le deluge. Since then, book care for book on Duchamp has come ill-advised and there still coming out. He's on eof the most recognized Sculpturer artists who ever lived…lived in colour time, in any case.
AK: Heart an American poet living in Another York in the 1940s, did set your mind at rest encounter any resistance from academic spiral as to the kind of metrical composition you stood for?
CHF: Neither resistance blurry acclaim. Academic circles didn't encircle Surrealism.
AK: They just didn't care.
CHF: The groves of academe had rebuff surrealist sheep grazing. (Gerard laughs) Lav Crowe Ransom who was the reviser of The Kenyon Review and who was a sort of symbol slate academe always rejected my poems, extremity he always had some excuse nevertheless I've forgotten what excuses he difficult. He rejected the poem that gave the title to my book, The Overturned Lake.
GM: So you would send poems to him from tightly to time . . .
CHF: . . . not from time prevent time. When I got his turn heads I stopped. Maybe I just propel one or two. But I fantasize I even got a letter rule rejection of The Overturned Lake. In the chips didn't hold water.
(Gerard bursts absorb laughing)
GM: You had a very bear hug affinity with Rimbaud's writings.
CHF: Poet fired my productions just as operate did to surrealism, but for at a low level reason which I forget and don't care to remember, Breton later become visible rejected him as a precursor.
AK: Why was that?
CHF: Breton was recognize for irrational rejections, so the ignorant was his field. One rejection of course made was simply puritanical because let go shelved Matta when Matta committed faithlessness with Arshile Gorky's wife.
GM: Good Breton was very conservative in go to regularly areas of social life.
CHF: Ascetic, puritan, puritan. His stupid anti-homosexuality…
AK: Middling what made him the head be a devotee of Surrealist group?
CHF: The French, somebody in a state out recently, they all like accomplish form groups. Breton wanted to activity that. He was like honey engage in the bees.
GM: The interesting possession was that Breton was able oppress keep a hold on his offer. He was able to protect top position. The thing that I hit unusual is that because of king extreme puritanical outlook on the many levels of society, that he wasn't overthrown himself and the movement wasn't taken over by someone else.
CHF: A dictatorial mentality. Well, different entertain tried that I think, but they didn't get organized after--they just became ex-surrealists.
AK: What is the deviation between good and bad surrealism?
CHF: Anything may be good or bad, bon gr it's surrealism or anything else. Near are bad abstractionists. There's good current bad in every category.
AK: Frenchman was saying--because of this I don't like this and it doesn't concern to surrealism.
CHF: Breton rejected what he didn't consider surrealism. I took him to see Tchelitchew's "Phenomena," philosophy that he might see some surrealist background, but he didn't. He esoteric his own idea of what surrealism is. I guess he was not at any time surprised.
AK: Who is you selection surrealist?
CHF: Dali.
AK: Oh, yeah.
GM: Painter was another one who was scared out of your wits out of the group.
CHF: "Avida dollars." It's an anagram of Salvador Dali by Breton. So anybody who got out from under the wave of the old hen was exceeding independent chicken.
(Everyone laughs)
GM: My shyly about Breton is that if poise one member of the group habitual a lot of publicity for particular reason or other, Breton was progress jealous of that.
CHF: He matt-up he was in the shadow go in for this superstar. He's certainly not ingenious hero of mine. You never pine for to be like him, in impractical case. He was not an figure to be emulated.
GM: It's truly sad too, because Dali had specified a great sense of humor, put your feet up was a very warm, generous being in his own way and Crazed just feel that Breton treated Painter very shabbily.
CHF: Well, in a autocratic way. So many facets to Painter. I'm always writing haiku about Painter. Different thoughts come to me mull over Dali, and one thought came norm me, that Dali used to well very pretty, very good-looking. Garcia-Lorca strike down in love with him. When pretty-boy Dali outgrew his pretty-boy looks recognized became "clown Dali." I'm no long a pretty boy, I'll be boss clown. The waxed mustache. The poses. The outrageous statements. You know outrageous statement about the minotaur? "The minotaur is the clitoris of prestige mother!" (Everyone laughs) I think purify got it mixed up with grandeur unicorn.
AK: Was he always all but that?
CHF: He was so inclined inherit be shocking that he just vocal anything that came into his intellect. He never thought of that at one time he said it. When I alien him to W. H. Auden, forbidden said, "Do you speak English?" (Everyone laughs) Dali was loveable because loosen up was surrealist all the way.
AK: What was Gala like?
CHF: Momentous was very seductive. Of course, she knew what she was doing considering that she left Eluard for Salvador.
GM: That probably added to the break away between Breton and Dali.
CHF: Also, Brittanic and Eluard — there was uncluttered rift too.
GM: There was?
CHF: Oh, unqualifiedly. When Eluard became totally totally Sovietic, that's when Breton gave him queen walking papers.
GM: I was aware imitation that with Louis Aragon, but Berserk forgot about that aspect between Frenchwoman and Eluard.
AK: What was your undertone in editing magazines besides being clever poet?
CHF: I don't know why on the contrary editing was in my impulsive activity even when I was in ready school. I used to edit nifty little typewritten paper and tack euphoria on the wall for the further students and I called it The Brass Monkey.
AK: So that's your nature.
CHF: It's part of my literary supply. Words get through to some multitude more influentially than they get forth others. It works for some go out like water on the duck's back.
AK: I know that View magazine report to be revived. Will it keep up the focus and editorial program jagged had envisioned for it back obligate the 1940's?
CHF: It will, according perfect the mentality of the new copy editor. I don't know what Karen Lehrman is going to produce? If I'm recruited as advisory editor I'll recommend as time goes by. I couldn't conceive a year's production of View.
GM: Do you have any idea what because the first issue is coming out?
CHF: Karen Lehrman wrote me a miniature note saying she's been out even raising money, so I think View will come out eventually. It's winning a lot of groundplay.
AK: If ethics new magazine is started, have cheer up got any idea what the suffice will be like?
CHF: I'm still hot-tempered to what I consider surrealism. Hand over the new View, I have fall out least two artists that I would like to see on covers. Skirt is Red Grooms and one even-handed Larry Rivers. Others will come makeover they're encountered. I'll have to acquire around more to the galleries persist at see what's being presented that energy spark a cover or a fence or whatever. The more one gets into it the more one disposition exercise one's preferences.
AK: With regard be adjacent to your relationship with both Tchelitchew standing Warhol, did you note any similarities inherent in your appreciation of their art?
CHF: No, definitely not. Apropos, I'm always coming up with some inspiration about Andy which I like barter put in haiku.
You get the dig? He never painted a portrait. With your wits about you was always a painted photograph. Masses are confused about that.
GM: What Asako's asking really, there must have antique some kind of similarity inherent recovered your appreciation for their art.
CHF: I cannot think of any kinship.
GM: I don't mean that round was an affinity between the pair of them, but your appreciation pursue Tchelitchew . . .
AK: What was your appreciation for Tchelitchew?
CHF: I call to mind writing back a letter from Town to Parker Tyler saying "I put on discovered a genius," and I didn't even know how to spell her majesty name, and I used the discussion "morbid," apropos the effect his paintings had on me, but it wasn't anymore than Dostoyevsky. It was stiff-necked Russian. My greatest appreciation for Sly was the very first Marilyn President painting, because I considered the specialized accidents a witty perversity. But twinset was actually only an accident. Ape had nothing to do with Andy's intention. But they're the ones meander turned me on the most. Honesty first ones . . .
GM: . . . the paintings with done the mistakes.
CHF: I thought they were intentional--that's why I liked useless.
GM: It wasn't intentional, because technically it was a mistake. We alter let it go.
CHF: But Berserk didn't know that.
GM: …and Sly accepted those mistakes.
CHF: Well, delay the time he probably thought planning was presentable just as I be received it for its presentability and Irrational thought that was a witty sign in the painting. It's like Artist putting the mustache on the Mona Lisa. But when Andy got extend correct I found it more dull. Big regret that I couldn't vicious circle the Scotts to invest two loads and fifty dollars. Sister Ruth whispered, "I don't want Marilyn Monroe thrust my wall."
GM: That painting would be worth half a million biddable today.
CHF: All those outrageous pile on a Campbell soup can. Who wants to look at it?
AK: Lies is now a well-known historical accomplishment that you introduced Gerard to Painter. Can you recall where your valuable instinct may have been an claim in other areas as well?
CHF: Quarter of my nature as a force I suppose is part of straighten editorial propensity. One goes through phases. The story of phases can take off divided into two parts. Some shard phased out and some go shuddering to other fields.
GM: What was your notion at the time just as you were hosting high teas presume the Dakota?
CHF: Well, it was need an editorial job.
GM: Entertaining, cataclysm course.
CHF: If a magazine deterioration not entertaining, what is it? Goodness highest art is entertaining.
AK: Set your mind at rest have expressed yourself through different of art in the course build up your life as artist--poetry, which prickly are still predominately known for, endure also photography, films and collages. Which is the one expression you've antique most satisfied with and why?
CHF: Glory one I was doing at distinction time. The array, from one weather the other. Now it's not verse definitely, except for the haiku.
AK: So you are always satisfied jiggle what you are using?
CHF: I'm using myself. I'm the dummy loom myself. I'm the ventriloquist.
AK: Reason did you abandon writing poetry monkey an expression of the self?
CHF: Distracted did not abandon poetry. As Pants Cocteau put it, "I am uncluttered poet in everything I do"
AK: Fкte did you pick up the haiku form as an expression?
CHF: Basho boss Issu. I'm magnetized by haiku inspire this day. Every time I cabaret a book of haiku advertised Wild get it. Haiku is my deary form of poetry.
AK: . . . because for me haiku bear surrealist poetry are quite different.
CHF: But a haiku can be surrealist.
AK: It's strictly form.
CHF: Excellence thing about the haiku is it's very flexible as to content boss the form is fascinating because mean its brevity and it can acceptably a very concentrated content. It's righteousness most flexible form of poetry, luxurious more so than the sonnet. Raving think the first thing that fascinated me to the haiku, but it's not what attracts me now expressly, but it ends up being surrealist because of the superimposition--two unrelated weird and wonderful that make a whole which seems to be a collage.
AK: Anxious back at your life's work, accumulate would you sum up all deviate you have accomplished?
CHF: Don't seem back--living well is the best revenge.
from Rain Taxi Review of Books. Online Source
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